Why is it that people who claim to be open-minded are the first one’s to get the fur flying? I appreciate the fact that coming to these right-wing websites that I don’t expect to change anyones mind on what has become entrenched dogma. However, it boggles the mind that someone I assume is educated and used to expressing themselves with dignity resorts to the type of childlish quips and wise-cracks that they constantly complain about coming from their opposition?
You assume that my opinions are driven by adolescent “emotion”. Why? Because they don’t fit your idea of what a rational, “seasoned” adult’s opinion should be? You state, regarding my views on the war on terror that my view “is not fueled by an understanding of the Islamic mindset…” You then state that, “…Orthodox Muslims don’t have an open mind.” My experience with people who claim “Orthodoxy” with ANY religion has led me to speculate that the population of “open minded Orthodoxy, by definition, is minute.
And your conclusions regarding the Islamic/ Muslim “mindset” doesn’t take into account that the vast majority of people, including the Arabs, who practice Islam, just like the vast majority of Jews, Catholics and Christians, ARE NOT ORTHODOX. The violent radical “mindset” of Islam obviously doesn’t represent the totality of Islam. The danger and violence always comes from the hard-line, right wing fringes of any inflexible, ORTHODOX ideology.
“Anyone who has truly studied the Islamic mindset, understands the necessity of the wars we are engaged in.” Unless this is your field of academic expertise, I doubt your take on the “Islamic mindset” is any more valid than the average right-wing conservative view that has always painted friends and enemies in the Middle East with a skewed, broad brush. Ironically, it’s interesting that our real best friend in the Middle East isn’t Israel, but the “Orthodox” Saudi’s, despite their support and co-financing of terror (our oil dollars at work!).
I never believed in the myth of human-triggered climate change, nor do I believe in Santa Claus, Willy Wonka, or corporate good will. Government has always been charged with the responsibility to regulate the “free market”, and intercede when and where necessary. Monopoly break-ups, collusion, unfair and unsafe labor practices, not to mention consumer and environmental protections, fall under the category of “…promoting the general welfare…” from that heralded document you know as our Constitution.
If you disagree with government “interference” in the private sector, then I guess you’re lucky enough not to live near Love Canal, Centennial, Pa, or any of the other sites where unfettered industry has wreaked havok on an unsuspecting community. There are many examples where the lack of government oversight on private industry has led to deadly results like the recent peanut and spinach scares, due to lack of inspection. The real threat to the American consumer is trusting big business to police itself without regard for local, state or federal regulations.
Let me conclude my response by saying that while I have never claimed to be; a.) a liberal, b.) in lock step support of this Administration, or c.) pro-Arab, I am not blinded by my personal beliefs to the exclusion of other viewpoints and I would never describe someone elses opinion as “liberal stupidity” as Mr. Publis has done in this article. Civility is exactly what is lacking in today’s arena of ideas and it has nurtured the current mean-spirited, disrespectful and ignorant(lack of knowledge) environment that permeates all of these ideology-driven blogs.
I could return fire and rip Jeannie and Mr. Publis regarding their rabid right-wing Glenn Beckish pitchfork fearpseak, but then I would digress from a courteous and thought-driven dialogue that focuses on the exchange of ideas, not hystrionic emotion. You may not agree with my views, but I would hope that you could at least elevate your responses from the childish “…you’re stupid!” type of hyperbol that has dominated the political blogosphere….
I won’t waste much more time than I already have ddland, but, this post further illustrates how shallow and reactionary your thinking is. Firstly; there are some 1.3 billion Muslims in the world it is estimated that 23-36.5% of the worlds Islamic population state that they hate America and would institute Sh’ria law if they could according to a book published by gallup. If we take the low estimate thats 299 million radical muslims in the world. The US population is some 304 million.
This is an article that points these facts out that I found on The Washington Institute For near east policy which liberal icon Al Gore calls:
“Washington’s most respected center for studies on the Middle East.”
As for my understanding of the Islamic mindset; my name is Hassan Ibn Nurullah, I was born and raised an orthodox Sunni Muslim and remained one for the first 30 years of my life. I converted to Christianity 15 years ago. I know what both the Qur’an and Holy Bible teach intimately. Not from surface reading which is so popular amongst liberals looking for out of context passages to try and prove a point. I mean untold hours of diligent study. And the hearts and minds of Christians and Muslims are as far apart as night and day. Nowhere does Christ teach conversion with the sword, the God of the Bible is not interested in hypocrites. If you read the Qur’an you cannot be a true Muslim without believing in Jihad.
Mr. Nurullah, I respect your view as an ex-Muslim and practicing Christian. However, even you cannot argue that American foreign policy, especially in the Middle East, has contributed to the “Muslim mindset” that hates not only America, but what it has stood for since the early 1930’s.
Christ may not have taught violent conversion, but even you cannot refute the untold millions who have died at the hands of those who have killed in his name. Islam has no monoply on “conversion by the sword” or by other means.
As a former Muslim you should be aware of the impact that foreign invasion and incursion has had on that same “Muslim mindset”. The Mongols destroyed a once promising civilisation of enlightened tolerance (while sparing their Christian allies) and the British exploited them through decades of colonialism. The one-sided Western support for Israel and our dismissive attitude towards Arab concerns (outside of oil) has given Muslims a reason to distrust and, yes, hate Americans (and Britian).
Israel is right! And there is a monumental difference between a religion that espouses and promotes proselytizing with the sword and one that has had bad things done in its name. Your point would be valid if Christ taught conversion by the sword as Muhammad clearly did. The one sided support for Israel is the right course. And believe me, if America never gave a dime to Israel and never set foot in the Middle East, we would still be the great Satan because we are essentially a Christian nation and the noble Qur’an teaches that Christians and jews are enemies, this was a part of the Qur’an long before all those issues you raised.
The Bible puts it rightly when it describes Ishmael and his descendants, after God spared his mothers life God had this to say some four thousand years ago about Ishmael.
“And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” Genesis 16:11,12
Can you look at the world today and deny what the Bible said about Ishmael and his children both spiritual and natural is true? Muslims are wreaking havoc all over the globe, not just in the middle east. France, England, Germany, China, India…
The Jews have the rightful claim to the land, they were there long before the arabs and far longer than Islam. In fact the name Palestine predates Islam as the land was given that name by the Romans after they conquered the Hebrews as a slap in the face. What could be more grievous to a conquered nation than to change the name of their country to reflect there most ancient enemies the Philistines?
The land was promised to the Jews by God and while they were faithful to Him it flourished. When they were driven out by the Romans, the land died and became barren. Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) took a tour through the Holy Lands in 1867, this is what he wrote about his experience in “Palestine”
“A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human being on the whole route. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”
Indeed the history of Palestinian Arabs really only dates back some 30 or 40 years. General Alenby, commander of the British military forces, reported “only about 5000 Arabs resided there.” Indeed there is no such thing as a Palestinian Arab as none of the modern arabs have any ancestral ties to the Philistines. The modern Arabs in the Holy land began to migrate there after 1918 from neighboring Arab countries, predominantly from areas now known as Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq. None of these countries existed as nations prior to 1913. They were nothing but a disorganized collection of tribes, constantly terrorizing each other, trying to seize land from their neighbors.
But it wasn’t until the Jews returned and Israel was reborn that the land began to come back to life in earnest. All the Arabs imported into the Holy Land was their age-old culture of terrorizing neighbors to seize land, This is even how the crusades began, as they were a reprisal to the Muslims capturing and slaughtering thousands in the Holy Lands.
In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: “The ‘Palestinian people’ does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel.”
You see ddland, this is really about the hatred that Ishmael had for his brother Isaac. There is no such creature as a Palestinian Arab by heritage, Even Yassir Arafat, the leader of the PLO, was not a native of the Holy Land. He was born in
1929 Cairo, Egypt. He served in the Egyptian army, studied in the University of Cairo, and lived in Cairo until 1956. He then moved to Saudi-Arabia and founded the Al-Fatah terror organization, the precursor to the PLO, in Kuwait in 1958, together with his Saudi-Arabian friends.
Those are the facts ddland, the Israelis have every right to that land and if I was in charge I wouldn’t cede a square inch to the Palestinians. It is interesting to note that one of the main reasons skeptics doubted the Bible, was because it said that the Jews would be back in Israel right before the end times in fact it is the key sign of the soon returning Christ, The Bible teaches that the generation that sees the return of the Jews to Israel would not all die off before Christ returns. Many didn’t believe that Israel could ever be reborn the Jewish diaspora was so complete, so final, that all changed in 1948.That’s one of the neat things about the Bible, it is the only “holy book” that has prophecy that has proven to be 100 percent accurate. no matter how hard the skeptics try to disprove it, there is always some find that corroborates the Bible narrative, its pretty wild stuff.
The bible has not been “proven” to be 100% of anything. The Bible is a compilation of writings from the hand of man, not God, so its “revelations” can hardly be submitted as any more valid than the ancient writings and myths of the Ancient Greeks or other peoples who have worshipped some form of Deity since man began asking why?
I’m not going to argue religion with you, sir, because I have learned that there is nothing to gain. You either believe or you don’t. That is a fact. Claims to land based on the writings or religions of a people are not proof or facts.
ddland, and this will be the last statement I make to you on this subject because like most liberals you have difficulty understanding what you read. I did not bring the Bible into my comments until I began to sum up as a means of showing how the Bible bolsters the arguments that I made from secular history. The same secular history that you had to completely ignore so that you could attack the veracity of the Bible. Anyone who can objectively compare the writings of the Bible and those of Greek Mythology and construe that they are equally valid, I have to conclude that their thinking lacks the sophistication adequate to holding a meaningful discourse on any subject.
If it seems that I am attacking you ddland, it is only because you failed to express an idea in your last posting salient enough to deal with. I will however agree with your decision not to engage me in a conversation on religion, since it is so woefully obvious that you would be over-matched.
Like I said, nothing is gained by trying to argue religion….or for that matter, political perspective. The “point” you failed to understand as “salient” was that as the Hebrews, as a people, are no more indigenous to this area of the world than the ancient Arab tribes that were conquered and driven out who also have lived there for generations. It is irrelevant whether they are called Palestinians or whatever they choose to call themselves.
We agree to disagree. I’ll respectfully refrain from diving to your bait and leave it at that. Have a beer and a dog and enjoy your evening!
Pingback: Jeannie-ology
Why is it that people who claim to be open-minded are the first one’s to get the fur flying? I appreciate the fact that coming to these right-wing websites that I don’t expect to change anyones mind on what has become entrenched dogma. However, it boggles the mind that someone I assume is educated and used to expressing themselves with dignity resorts to the type of childlish quips and wise-cracks that they constantly complain about coming from their opposition?
You assume that my opinions are driven by adolescent “emotion”. Why? Because they don’t fit your idea of what a rational, “seasoned” adult’s opinion should be? You state, regarding my views on the war on terror that my view “is not fueled by an understanding of the Islamic mindset…” You then state that, “…Orthodox Muslims don’t have an open mind.” My experience with people who claim “Orthodoxy” with ANY religion has led me to speculate that the population of “open minded Orthodoxy, by definition, is minute.
And your conclusions regarding the Islamic/ Muslim “mindset” doesn’t take into account that the vast majority of people, including the Arabs, who practice Islam, just like the vast majority of Jews, Catholics and Christians, ARE NOT ORTHODOX. The violent radical “mindset” of Islam obviously doesn’t represent the totality of Islam. The danger and violence always comes from the hard-line, right wing fringes of any inflexible, ORTHODOX ideology.
“Anyone who has truly studied the Islamic mindset, understands the necessity of the wars we are engaged in.” Unless this is your field of academic expertise, I doubt your take on the “Islamic mindset” is any more valid than the average right-wing conservative view that has always painted friends and enemies in the Middle East with a skewed, broad brush. Ironically, it’s interesting that our real best friend in the Middle East isn’t Israel, but the “Orthodox” Saudi’s, despite their support and co-financing of terror (our oil dollars at work!).
I never believed in the myth of human-triggered climate change, nor do I believe in Santa Claus, Willy Wonka, or corporate good will. Government has always been charged with the responsibility to regulate the “free market”, and intercede when and where necessary. Monopoly break-ups, collusion, unfair and unsafe labor practices, not to mention consumer and environmental protections, fall under the category of “…promoting the general welfare…” from that heralded document you know as our Constitution.
If you disagree with government “interference” in the private sector, then I guess you’re lucky enough not to live near Love Canal, Centennial, Pa, or any of the other sites where unfettered industry has wreaked havok on an unsuspecting community. There are many examples where the lack of government oversight on private industry has led to deadly results like the recent peanut and spinach scares, due to lack of inspection. The real threat to the American consumer is trusting big business to police itself without regard for local, state or federal regulations.
Let me conclude my response by saying that while I have never claimed to be; a.) a liberal, b.) in lock step support of this Administration, or c.) pro-Arab, I am not blinded by my personal beliefs to the exclusion of other viewpoints and I would never describe someone elses opinion as “liberal stupidity” as Mr. Publis has done in this article. Civility is exactly what is lacking in today’s arena of ideas and it has nurtured the current mean-spirited, disrespectful and ignorant(lack of knowledge) environment that permeates all of these ideology-driven blogs.
I could return fire and rip Jeannie and Mr. Publis regarding their rabid right-wing Glenn Beckish pitchfork fearpseak, but then I would digress from a courteous and thought-driven dialogue that focuses on the exchange of ideas, not hystrionic emotion. You may not agree with my views, but I would hope that you could at least elevate your responses from the childish “…you’re stupid!” type of hyperbol that has dominated the political blogosphere….
I won’t waste much more time than I already have ddland, but, this post further illustrates how shallow and reactionary your thinking is. Firstly; there are some 1.3 billion Muslims in the world it is estimated that 23-36.5% of the worlds Islamic population state that they hate America and would institute Sh’ria law if they could according to a book published by gallup. If we take the low estimate thats 299 million radical muslims in the world. The US population is some 304 million.
This is an article that points these facts out that I found on The Washington Institute For near east policy which liberal icon Al Gore calls:
“Washington’s most respected center for studies on the Middle East.”
http://tinyurl.com/nw7vv5
As for my understanding of the Islamic mindset; my name is Hassan Ibn Nurullah, I was born and raised an orthodox Sunni Muslim and remained one for the first 30 years of my life. I converted to Christianity 15 years ago. I know what both the Qur’an and Holy Bible teach intimately. Not from surface reading which is so popular amongst liberals looking for out of context passages to try and prove a point. I mean untold hours of diligent study. And the hearts and minds of Christians and Muslims are as far apart as night and day. Nowhere does Christ teach conversion with the sword, the God of the Bible is not interested in hypocrites. If you read the Qur’an you cannot be a true Muslim without believing in Jihad.
Mr. Nurullah, I respect your view as an ex-Muslim and practicing Christian. However, even you cannot argue that American foreign policy, especially in the Middle East, has contributed to the “Muslim mindset” that hates not only America, but what it has stood for since the early 1930’s.
Christ may not have taught violent conversion, but even you cannot refute the untold millions who have died at the hands of those who have killed in his name. Islam has no monoply on “conversion by the sword” or by other means.
As a former Muslim you should be aware of the impact that foreign invasion and incursion has had on that same “Muslim mindset”. The Mongols destroyed a once promising civilisation of enlightened tolerance (while sparing their Christian allies) and the British exploited them through decades of colonialism. The one-sided Western support for Israel and our dismissive attitude towards Arab concerns (outside of oil) has given Muslims a reason to distrust and, yes, hate Americans (and Britian).
Israel is right! And there is a monumental difference between a religion that espouses and promotes proselytizing with the sword and one that has had bad things done in its name. Your point would be valid if Christ taught conversion by the sword as Muhammad clearly did. The one sided support for Israel is the right course. And believe me, if America never gave a dime to Israel and never set foot in the Middle East, we would still be the great Satan because we are essentially a Christian nation and the noble Qur’an teaches that Christians and jews are enemies, this was a part of the Qur’an long before all those issues you raised.
The Bible puts it rightly when it describes Ishmael and his descendants, after God spared his mothers life God had this to say some four thousand years ago about Ishmael.
“And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” Genesis 16:11,12
Can you look at the world today and deny what the Bible said about Ishmael and his children both spiritual and natural is true? Muslims are wreaking havoc all over the globe, not just in the middle east. France, England, Germany, China, India…
The Jews have the rightful claim to the land, they were there long before the arabs and far longer than Islam. In fact the name Palestine predates Islam as the land was given that name by the Romans after they conquered the Hebrews as a slap in the face. What could be more grievous to a conquered nation than to change the name of their country to reflect there most ancient enemies the Philistines?
The land was promised to the Jews by God and while they were faithful to Him it flourished. When they were driven out by the Romans, the land died and became barren. Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) took a tour through the Holy Lands in 1867, this is what he wrote about his experience in “Palestine”
“A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human being on the whole route. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”
Indeed the history of Palestinian Arabs really only dates back some 30 or 40 years. General Alenby, commander of the British military forces, reported “only about 5000 Arabs resided there.” Indeed there is no such thing as a Palestinian Arab as none of the modern arabs have any ancestral ties to the Philistines. The modern Arabs in the Holy land began to migrate there after 1918 from neighboring Arab countries, predominantly from areas now known as Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq. None of these countries existed as nations prior to 1913. They were nothing but a disorganized collection of tribes, constantly terrorizing each other, trying to seize land from their neighbors.
But it wasn’t until the Jews returned and Israel was reborn that the land began to come back to life in earnest. All the Arabs imported into the Holy Land was their age-old culture of terrorizing neighbors to seize land, This is even how the crusades began, as they were a reprisal to the Muslims capturing and slaughtering thousands in the Holy Lands.
In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: “The ‘Palestinian people’ does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel.”
You see ddland, this is really about the hatred that Ishmael had for his brother Isaac. There is no such creature as a Palestinian Arab by heritage, Even Yassir Arafat, the leader of the PLO, was not a native of the Holy Land. He was born in
1929 Cairo, Egypt. He served in the Egyptian army, studied in the University of Cairo, and lived in Cairo until 1956. He then moved to Saudi-Arabia and founded the Al-Fatah terror organization, the precursor to the PLO, in Kuwait in 1958, together with his Saudi-Arabian friends.
Those are the facts ddland, the Israelis have every right to that land and if I was in charge I wouldn’t cede a square inch to the Palestinians. It is interesting to note that one of the main reasons skeptics doubted the Bible, was because it said that the Jews would be back in Israel right before the end times in fact it is the key sign of the soon returning Christ, The Bible teaches that the generation that sees the return of the Jews to Israel would not all die off before Christ returns. Many didn’t believe that Israel could ever be reborn the Jewish diaspora was so complete, so final, that all changed in 1948.That’s one of the neat things about the Bible, it is the only “holy book” that has prophecy that has proven to be 100 percent accurate. no matter how hard the skeptics try to disprove it, there is always some find that corroborates the Bible narrative, its pretty wild stuff.
The bible has not been “proven” to be 100% of anything. The Bible is a compilation of writings from the hand of man, not God, so its “revelations” can hardly be submitted as any more valid than the ancient writings and myths of the Ancient Greeks or other peoples who have worshipped some form of Deity since man began asking why?
I’m not going to argue religion with you, sir, because I have learned that there is nothing to gain. You either believe or you don’t. That is a fact. Claims to land based on the writings or religions of a people are not proof or facts.
ddland, and this will be the last statement I make to you on this subject because like most liberals you have difficulty understanding what you read. I did not bring the Bible into my comments until I began to sum up as a means of showing how the Bible bolsters the arguments that I made from secular history. The same secular history that you had to completely ignore so that you could attack the veracity of the Bible. Anyone who can objectively compare the writings of the Bible and those of Greek Mythology and construe that they are equally valid, I have to conclude that their thinking lacks the sophistication adequate to holding a meaningful discourse on any subject.
If it seems that I am attacking you ddland, it is only because you failed to express an idea in your last posting salient enough to deal with. I will however agree with your decision not to engage me in a conversation on religion, since it is so woefully obvious that you would be over-matched.
Like I said, nothing is gained by trying to argue religion….or for that matter, political perspective. The “point” you failed to understand as “salient” was that as the Hebrews, as a people, are no more indigenous to this area of the world than the ancient Arab tribes that were conquered and driven out who also have lived there for generations. It is irrelevant whether they are called Palestinians or whatever they choose to call themselves.
We agree to disagree. I’ll respectfully refrain from diving to your bait and leave it at that. Have a beer and a dog and enjoy your evening!