Raising the “White Towel” of Surrender


Torture is defined as “the infliction of intense pain from burning, crushing or wounding.” In what appears to be a political effort to criminalize Bush era policy the Obama Administration has sanctioned the declassification and release of top secret memos. The communiqués outline, in detail, enhanced interrogation techniques used on Abu Zubaydah “…high ranking member of al Qaeda” and terrorist operations chief, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.  The controversy is based on the premise that enhanced interrogation is tantamount to torture and futile in obtaining vital information. The new administration contends that Bush coercion policy caused enemy combatants undue anguish and only served to morally diminish our ethical standing in a world.

Reflecting on the events of September 11th, 2001 reminds us that the victims who died or were injured at the hands of fanatical jihad warriors were the ones who were tortured, not the perpetrators. After the attack, captured al Qaeda leaders, Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah, continued to arrogantly, “…celebrate the destruction of the World Trade Center” and sneer, along with Osama Bin Laden, at the grisly types of death and injury thousands suffered at the hands of the Mujahedin brotherhood.

Official documents show that while incarcerated both Zubaydah and Sheikh Mohammed lived comfortably and were always treated respectfully and humanely by their American captors. The kindness extended them did nothing to change their level of dedication to slaughter. Calm and unrepentant Zubaydah steadfastly remained, “…devoted to jihad…expressing unabated desire to kill Americans and Jews.”

The statistical data from 9-11 exposes how far both men went in dedication to furthering their cause.  Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah actively assisted in plotting the death of 2,819 innocent people, of whom only 289 maimed bodies were found intact, rejoicing together that 19,858 body parts were strewn throughout 1,506,124 pounds of debris.  American jihad resulted in the dead suffering the disrespect of having their “…body parts…torsos and chunks of flesh” strewn in the streets together with “…airplane landing gear and car fires.

Throughout the Bush years, policy attempted to prevent a similar devastating hit and took whatever measures necessary to protect the American people from having to suffer a catastrophe of such magnitude again.  Enhanced interrogation was one of tools in the security cache that mined information from high value prisoners who were known to have key information that could save American lives.

The Bush Administration, in conjunction with CIA officials, believed that both Zubaydah and Sheikh Mohammed, “…had additional information they refused to divulge…regarding terrorist networks in the United States.”  In an effort to ascertain critical intelligence the CIA decided “increased pressure” would successfully weaken the high value detainee’s “strong resolve” and provide the government with crucial information.  It wasn’t until being subjected to enhanced interrogation that Abu Zubaydah gave up key details, which led to high profile terrorist Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s eventual capture.

Like his cohort, Sheikh Mohammed refused to respond to inquiries about impending plots and sadistically warned his inquisitors that “Soon, they will know.”  Without enhancement interrogation methods the CIA would have been ineffective in convincing the obstinate Jihadist to confess to managing “a cell for the production of biological weapons, such as anthrax.” Mohammed’s stress induced collaboration disrupted the Padilla plan to detonate a “dirty bomb” on American soil and prevented a “second wave” plot to crash a hijacked airliner into Los Angeles.  Thanks to the forced cooperation of both Zubaydah and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, American lives were saved.

The types of enhanced interrogation declassified in the controversial memos include walling.  Walling pulls the detainee forward and then pushes them back so their shoulders bounce off a false, flexible wall creating a loud intimidating sound.  Unlike the explosion that shook the world when planes shattered through the World Trade Towers, walling is risk-free.

Through release of the memos mea culpas were offered for the use of confinement.  Cramped confinement subjects the suspect to a dark, restricted space with the suggestion of a buzzing insect that is really a harmless caterpillar.  Upon release, the captive is promptly attended to by a physician; a luxury those prematurely confined to their final resting place on 9-11 did not have the benefit of.

In comparison, terrorist detainee Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s interrogation sessions were quite unlike the type of imprisonment Port Authority officers experienced when trapped thirty-feet beneath the rubble of the World Trade Center for twenty-two hours.  They were choked by dust and smoke and fire-balls tumbled into the hole that held their crushed bodies. Miraculously rescued from the fiery pile, one officer spent six-weeks in a medically induced coma, endured thirty surgeries and suffered extensive skin grafting to save his limbs.

Terrorists committed to Islam’s domination furthered their goal, on September 11th, by successfully torturing innocent victims who were dying of smoke inhalation, immolated or crushed under tons of cement. These sufferers endured so much pain that “…the skin on their bodies burnt off.”  If given the choice of being forcibly questioned or being singed to the bone by a huge meteor-like fireball flashing out from a freight elevator shaft, 9-11 victims would prefer enhanced interrogation over terror, for sure.

Any suggestion that induced muscle fatigue is either immoral or inhumane renders America impotent as compared to an enemy who casually decapitates innocent people in an attempt to portray potency and commitment to higher ideals. The President’s policy suggests that even if benign forms of intimidation have proven effective in preventing nuclear or biological weapons from being detonated in American cities, its use still remains criminal.

The most divisive of all techniques white towel, water boarding or simulated drowning, was used by our CIA because it worked, “…after just 35 seconds under water” Zubaydah submitted information, which aided our nation in the world-wide war on terror and subverted plots here in the United States.  The divisive memos stated that exposure to enhanced questioning worked to convince high value detainees to cooperate. “KSM and Zubaydah were pivotal sources because of their ability and willingness to provide … analysis and speculation about the capabilities, methodologies and mindsets of terrorists,” very possibly their aid was the primary reason Americans have not been attacked since September 11th.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Zubaydah reveled in Americans suffering.  They praised Allah when desperate people chose to leap hundreds of floors to their deaths.  The decision to declare war on Bush’s policies, and to publicly condemn effective coercion techniques, suggests to the world that al Qaeda warriors’ comfort levels take precedence over protecting American lives.

The President appears to be desperate for an opportunity to appease a befuddled sense of right and wrong. Rather than quelling the storm he is planning to extend the torture debate by releasing additional photos of non-sanctioned prisoner abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Obama’s torture policy makes him complicit in reaffirming antipathy toward America and jeopardizes eight years of successful national security.

Copyright 2009 Jeannieology. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


  1. da

    “Official documents show that while incarcerated both Zubaydah and Sheikh Mohammed lived comfortably and were always treated respectfully and humanely by their American captors.”

    Would you believe “official documents” from another country were the situation reversed and it was our people in detainment/concentration camps? I’m sure…you know, the documents are “official”, so they must be true. Oh wait, Americans are completely honest ALL the time.

    “water boarding or simulated drowning, was used by our CIA because it worked, “…after just 35 seconds under water” Zubaydah submitted information, which aided our nation in the world-wide war on terror and subverted plots here in the United States.”

    I note you left out the fact that for one of these guys, it was done more than 180 times. The other guy, not as many, but the point is clear. Thirty-five seconds…on the 183rd time…is not something to brag about – but of course the Drudge Report is oh-so-well known for its objectivity in reporting.

    Look, nobody’s questioning that terrorists MUST be captured and information obtained. No American with any sense of decency and love of country can look upon what happened on 9/11 without a deep anger toward perpetrators who inflicted such horrific harm to us. That, however, does NOT excuse activities that, whether you think they’re not a big deal…or not torture…are ILLEGAL.

    We, as a nation, were one of the countries who headed up the Geneva Convention, and within the laws that WE helped to create and design, there are very specific guidelines that we are to follow. Further, military regulations have EXTREMELY specific measures that are listed in SOPs for interrogation techniques.

    To suggest that, through nefarious means, the Bush Administration casually “stepped outside” of those laws is not only naive, but it’s also disastrously incorrect. GW Bush and his administration went above the law because they held nothing but contempt for the law. And they used “lawyers” to do so. The bottom line is that each and every member of the administration who took part in this CRIMINAL act should be held before international tribunal for crimes against humanity AND should be held accountable for violating international laws. Period.

    This isn’t “tit-for-tat” – I want to see the terrorist cells eliminated too – but NOTHING the Bush Administration did truly made the US safer than before 9/11. And jumping on some bandwagon to lampoon Obama isn’t going to help matters either. Without support from the international community, matters ONLY get worse for us as a nation. Whether or not we “should” be members of the UN is irrelevant. The fact is, we ARE, like it or not. And as such, we need to adhere to UN counsel instead of playing cowboy cops around the world. To that end, so far as your ranting here about the harmlessness of interrogation techniques and torture – well, my suggestion to you would be to volunteer to have some of those methods implemented on YOU and afterward, tell us if they’re no big deal, or if there might just be a reason that they were deemed ILLEGAL.

    We are NOT above thelaw.

  2. Obama could carless about the war on terror because he, truly hates the CIA and the military. Obama feels that the terrorist are a victim of United States Opression. another great article Jeannie. I am going to wave my white towel in the air and wave it like you just don’t care. HEY! Jeannie these words are from a Hip-Hop Song from the 1980’s. Barry and Michelle are dancing to the song in the white house. Jeannie you wish you had a pair of $500 shoes.

  3. Theresa

    Although I do think that the measures we use against “the enemy” should be classified. I also believe that the CIA should not be prosecuted. I think Obama is just the puppet…. It’s the puppeteers that want us to think he’s for “we the People”. As yoiu well know {job well don by the way!} Torture Torture!! This is not the first time nor will it be the last that use of “torture tactics” will be preformed. It has happenewd many times in the past. But we have a Pres. who needs loud, scary, terror inflicting propaganda to keep us busy focusing on.. “terror, Swine Flu, crumbling economy, etc.” rather than what he is really doing… Which is leading us straight Socialist-Fascism while we go skipping along thinking “what a great 100 days its been. N.W.O.~~N.W.H.~~Verichipping headed up by the Bilderberg Group”.
    YOU’RE DOING A GREAT JOB. Please keep me posted! God bless and keep fighting the good fight…..
    Let’s research “Nutricide” and “Codex Alimentarius” {I watched a conference & the speaker was Ian Crane} and the FDA granting approval for “cloned” meat to be sent in the US for consumption… absolutely no labling allowed…etc. Lets here some of that now folks!!

  4. Theresa

    We are in a new era… And the comment how to handle a school yard bully is to carry a bigger bat around!! {Love that!} Silence is acceptance people! We the people better pay attention… Google “The Alex Jones Show”… google Ian Crane on “Codex Alimentarius”… “Nutricide” … google Illuminati Conspiracy… The Insurrection Act… Egalitarianism..
    Get back to me after that. What if…. has become WHEN!! God bless to you all. We the people let’s stand united….

  5. Tech57

    Muslims use our so called ‘torture’ methods on their first dates. Lord forbid we should grab them by the collar and get in their faces. Oh my! so harsh. These islamofacists are laughing all the way to the local jihad store to load their children up with bombs.
    In WWII, when we caught Germans in our uniforms we didn’t have war trials or tribunals…..we lined them up agains the wall and shot them dead. No questions. All within the Geneva Convention. Perhaps we should put FDR on trial. Actually, I do like the sound of that but, not for war crimes but for starting us down this path of globalized socialism!!

    Out tactics of the last 8 years are amaturish at best now, thanks to MaoBama we cannot do anything harsher than making them listen to MaoBama’s speaches.

  6. jeannieology

    You’ve been welcome to speak your piece but when someone says God Bless you and then you tell them that you’re offended I think that maybe you are in the wrong place because I don’t want you to be offended…I know that bothers you offending people and things…

    So if you peruse my blog — you will see all voices are welcome not just ones that agree with me though most who visit here do…so you’re welcome to continue to opine anytime

  7. jeannieology

    Well I interpreted Rene as being a man…so we’re even and I could have told you from your first posting that you were raised in an evangelical home…hows that for perception?

    Every comment you’ve made so far is sympathetic toward the enemy and hard on America…your ideology is just as strong and one way as you accuse others of having — and reactionary too.

    Everyone is welcome here…those who are offended and those who are not. To accuse someone of being insensitive to gender and religion issues belies your claim of not being oversensitive.

    My post had no assumptions…I work very hard to document what I say with hard evidence which I did throughout the post and I do throughout my blog.

    I would you suggest you read the 5 memos…thoroughly before you put an opinion out there about techniques and whether they worked or not.

    After reading them its hard to argue with my points…

  8. Ben

    For Obama to eliminate waterboarding and other “enhanced techniques” for obtaining information from our sworn enemies and then release to our enemies the Top Secret Interrogation memos and photos of alleged abuse can only weaken our country inviting further attacks. For Obama to release these Top Secret memos and photos to our enemies is nothing short of treason! If Mr. Holder wants to prosecute someone, he should first consider prosecuting Mr. Obama for Treason under 18 USC Sec. 2381 for aiding and giving comfort to our enemies.
    Jeannie, excellent article!

  9. jeannieology

    General question: Why is every liberal a godless person who worships anything else but God? They worship themselves, the planet, the President, their own benevolence, intellectual knowledge, pet rocks, terrorists, other religions…btw Rene…there is only one God and one day you’ll stand before Him and so will the Muslims…and what a surprise that will be…in fact I’m going to pray, in spite of how offensive that is to you, that when we stand before the judgment seat of God I’m in the general vicinity with you and maybe even da … so I can make eye contact with you and see the look on both of your faces…Good thing God is love and His blood covers such nonsense.

    God bless you both … and don’t blow up from that one!

  10. jeannieology

    First of all, I challenge you to find “religious zealotry” anywhere on this blog…you’ll be doing a lot of research for that one.

    No one brow beat you with a Bible and if somebody did that is unfortunate. I’m sorry you had an experience like that. Its even sadder that your experience did so much damage to you…that really is too bad and sad. There are a lot of representatives out there doing God’s business that should find another job.

    But I would guess that there is a lifestyle choice or direction you want to take in your life that you feel judged by the Word of God and that is what has made you bitter — but that is what usually happens — God bless your mother as she continues to pray for you.

    I don’t understand why you can’t see why we dolts believe in God…brilliance wouldn’t be that simple or close minded.

    I doubt you’re more conservative than me…I have more perceptions but I’ll pass on sharing them.

    Calling me a religious zealot shows me that you do a lot of accusing of other people for things you seem to do yourself…just my perception.

  11. jeannieology

    When you can prove to me there is no God…I’ll listen to your argument…which you cannot…so maybe its your brains that fell out not mine.

    In addition, I’m sincerely sorry your mother is sick that is very, very sad and unfortunate…but to blame it on her beliefs is ridiculous. Some people who suffer from mental illness do have religious hallucinations etc…but to blame God or faith for her sickness is not intelligent on your part at all.

    No one told you how to make your cake make it anyway you want … you came to my blog…I didn’t come to yours.

    Like I said before and we can end this discussion I’m sorry your exposure to God has been so negative that you have had this type of reaction and bitter response…it is not an uncommon thing — it has nothing to do with God and everything to do with flesh…men who distort things…so good luck to you and I hope you find peace in your life.

  12. da

    This is specifically in response to Theresa:

    Oh my. You are quite presumptuous, Theresa. Let’s go line by line here.

    First: “da” are my initials. But allow me to introduce myself by first name. My name is Denise. I am not a “sir.”

    Second: You met the Christ personally? That’s quite impressive. What color is his skin? What color are his eyes? And “thousands” out of a planet of over six *billion* is still quite a small fraction of a percentage. Our country has the largest population of christians on the planet, and our population is something like 313million (give or take) – and of *that* number, only approximately half are christian. That is not significant.

    Third: The very history of christianity is replete with many different political sub-structures, and the language of the bible is embedded with language that, in the Old Testament, is a history of the tribes of Israel (a historical account of the Hebrew nation); the New Testament is interpreted (loosely) in two very disparate fashions. On the one hand, by “modern” interpretation, it is a series of contracts between followers of the Christ, which is what many of us who were raised in it understand it to be. However, given the nature of the politics of the time between the Jews and the Romans, there are many passages that have been taken out of their original contextual intent and applied to modern principle – which is the theological equivalent of media spin in today’s “journalism”. Linguistically, you have to consider that the original texts were in ancient Hebrew, translated to Latin, and later translater to English (and yes, I know I’m oversimplifying this a bit for brevity) – but even with one-to-one translations of modern language (let’s say, randomly…English to Spanish), nuances are quickly and easily lost in translation. How much more has been lost in interpretation of the bible through the many hundreds of years that the church has been spinning it for the sole purpose of control of the masses?

    Fourth: *laughing* You don’t know me remotely enough to declare hard-heartedness or bitterness. As a mother, I know true, unconditional love felt for children. And I will thank you kindly to leave my parents’ teachings out of it. As adults, we decide of our own accord what to internalize and what to reject of our parents’ teachings. Which goes back to what I said earlier. As individuals, we are responsible for ourselves. To point, for example, as a parent…my JOB is to teach my children right from wrong…and to teach them *how* to think. Not *what* to think (that would be called indoctrination)…but *how* to think.

    Fifth: I thanked you for your concern, with complete appreciation and first-hand understanding as to where it was coming from, but politely asked you to leave it alone beyond that. You, however, seemed to take that as an invitation to insert your theology here and presume that you have the entitlement or authority to suggest how I do or do not raise my children, which…quite bluntly…is NONE of your business. My children are not your responsibility. My soul is not your responsibility. My salvation is not your responsibility. What I do wherever I live in this great country of ours is of NO concern to you, as it does not impact your life in any way whatsoever.

    Thank you for your prayers, but intercessory prayer is kind of a waste of your time.


  13. da

    This is specifically addressing Jeannie, as the author of this blog. I have chosen, after yesterday’s interesting exchanges, to respond in my own space, rather than posting (yet another) verbose response *here* – out of respect for your space.

    Further, I have not included the direct link to this blog…so as not to invite flamers to your page, since my the two places I posted my commentary are as public as this blog, and I don’t wish for any harassment to come your way.

    dA: http://prosepetals.deviantart.com/art/An-EXTREMELY-Specific-Response-121299449

    Storm: http://www.storm-artists.net/full/71276

    As always (and as I state plainly in various journals), I welcome *respectful* debate anywhere I have an online presence. If you would prefer to keep your comments here, that’s totally cool. If you choose to comment in my page directly, that’s cool, too (though I think you need to be a member to comment – I’m not certain).

    Take care. 🙂

    • jeannieology

      I don’t get it…if we help we’re policing the world…if we don’t help — we did nothing to help our allies…

      OK you can say we’re no safer…if that is what you believe…we’re no safer in the last 3 months I know that for sure.

      War is a result of evil in the world…its something that no one likes…but exists…we were attacked first…we didn’t start this fight.

      Enemy combatants do not have the same constitutional rights as American citizens…never have — this is a new concept…having war trials where people who blow up our citizens can then accuse our military and government of things…those who went before us must be rolling over in their graves.

      You are comparing apples to oranges…putting someone in a bag and feeding them to hungry rats or pulling out their finger nails one by one does not walling make…there is eons of difference…these were mostly psychological techniques which were suggestions more than reality and don’t compare with having your fingers broken with a ball peen hammer…sorry! So for me there is no contradiction AT ALL.

      My way of thinking… the ME better adjust to our way of thinking…sorry that’s the way I feel. I believe in peace through strength…the best way to calm a school yard bully is to carry a bigger bat around with you.

      The radicals in the ME hate us and want both us and Israel destroyed, enhanced interrogation techniques or not…so we might as well water board some information out of them too.

      If anyone has “inflamed” the ME its Obama, he should have kept those memos classified and he intends to ramp it up by now releasing more photos of unsanctioned torture and mistreatment in Abu Graihb….he is the one who is making us less safe.

      I’m not a globalist or a collectivist…I not into this hold hands and all work together…it won’t work! We either have to be the strongest and the most responsible for our own safety or this 200 year run of freedom, democracy and prosperity is about to come to an end.

      You seem to care about our country but you really do seem to have a problem with our nation and its history and actions past and present — maybe you should join the Obama Administration and dig up some more dirt on us and get it out there so the ME and all our enemies like us even more!

  14. Never mind, da,

    I read a statement by Stephen Hawkings once, were he stated that the incredible order of the universe and life on earth does seem to argue for the existence of God, but that he didn’t think it was the God of the Bible. He said the God of the Bible is a God of economy, and that the God of the Bible would have created on sun, one planet, one moon… On the surface this sounds reasonable.

    I read this before I was a Christian, but I remember thinking that as smart as Hawkings is supposed to be, he exhibited in this particular instance very shallow reasoning, bordering on arrogance.

    I would agree having studied the Bible rather extensively since then, that the God of the Bible is indeed a God of economy. But it seems just as likely that God would know exactly how many stars, planets and moons etc that it would take to sustain life on the earth, and He would not make one more than He needed.

    What do you think da?

  15. @da,

    “I have already expressed that I am not a scientist. I’m not suggesting that the subject is of no importance – just that my knowledge of it is not sufficient to enter into any real debate about it. ”

    You are right of course, you are not a scientist, nor, incidentally, am I. But, when you made this statement:

    “Given how little is actually known about the full scope of the universe…how many *galaxies* (et cetera ad nauseam), the premise is faulty to begin with – as whether or not life on earth is the core question isn’t something that really matters on a universal scale.”

    You made it with the air of authority of one who does not find themselves challenged very often. Indeed you presented it like you wrote the book on the subject.

    At least own that when you challenge the veracity of the Gospels, chronologically or otherwise or in whatever context amongst Christians that you should be prepared to cooly deal with the ramifications of your statements.

    I can assure you that though I am amused by your answers I am far from annoyed, every assumption you have made about me or my motivations are based soly on conjecture, on what you say you have gleaned from a cursory inspection of my blog. I, unlike you, have yet to make a dogmatic statement.

    I accept that, your extrapolations based on circumstantial evidence just may be spot on. In fact, a great many court cases are won in this manner. You have at least convinced yourself that you know my motives. You accept that as reasonable. Do you believe the same sort of evidence could be used to support the existence of God? I mean from the Bible and the staggering complexity of the universe that argue against random chance?

    • da

      *laughing* And I thought my mother was a religious zealot. Difference is, I happen to love her with all my heart, though I completely disagree with her on matters of theology. Enjoy your fantasy…religion brings comfort to others, and that is something that I have no problem with in and of itself. What is sick and sad is that there are people who feel that their duty and obligation is to shove it down others’ throats. Gah, talk about nonsense! *shakes head* That isn’t ministry – it’s brow-beating with a bible. Another note – I’m not a “liberal” — that is the most ridiculous label of all. Chances are, there are probably areas where I’m more “conservative” than you are. Again…sweeping generalizations…must be that brilliant perception at work again.

  16. Ben

    Hello Hassan – here’s something that’s been interesting to me about Stephen Hawking:

    * “If the rate of expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have recollapsed before it even reached its present size. On the other hand, if the expansion rate at one second had been larger by the same amount, the universe would have expanded so much that it would be effectively empty by now.” p. 72, “The Illustrated History of Everything.”
    * “…[E]ven now, ten thousand million years later, it is still expanding at nearly the critical rate.” p. 126, “A Brief History of Time – 10th Anniversary Edition, Expanded”

    I began thinking about this: he couches the expansion in terms of “one part in a hundred thousand million million.” What is this number? I tried to comprehend it: A hundred thousand is 10 to the 5th; a million is 10 to the 6th; so “a hundred thousand million million” is 10 to the 5th (times) 10 to the 6th (times) 10 to the 6th; which is 10 to the 17th. There are 31,536,000 seconds in a year, (60 x 60 x 24 x 365), so if this number, 10 to the 17th were seconds, and we divided by the number of seconds in a year, it would be one part (one second) in 3.17 billion years!. In other words, if you had a watch that was accurate to within 1 second every 3.17 billion years, that’s how precise the rate of expansion had to be. If it was off by more than the equivalent of one second every 3.17 billion years, the universe would have either collapsed in on itself or expanded into almost nothingness. This incredibly tight tolerance, in light of his scientific non-explanation, has opened the door for Hawking to speculate about the existence of a Creator. He concludes:

    * “It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us.” p. 73, “The Illustrated History of Everything,” also at, p. 131, “A Brief History of Time – 10th Anniversary Edition, Expanded.”
    * “So long as the universe had a beginning that was a singularity, one could suppose that it was created by an outside agency.” p. 87, “The Illustrated History of Everything.” [Italics added].

    Having thus broached the possibility of a Creator, he then asks some questions relevant for today.

    * “Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing?”
    * “Is the unified theory so compelling that it brings about its own existence?”
    * “Or does it need a creator, and, if so, does He have any effect on the universe other than being responsible for its existence?”
    * “And who created Him?” p. 111, “The Illustrated History of Everything.”

    To me, Hawking’s non-explanation and musings on a Creator are much more persuasive of the existence of God than that of a theologian, because, Hawking is reluctantly forced to conclude that science has no explanation, and the precise, infinitesimally accurate tolerances for creation of a non-collapsing, non-totally dispersed universe bespeak a plan so incredible that only a plan of an infinite, timeless Creator could have caused it. “In the beginning was The Plan,” — which is another accurate rendering of “In the beginning was the Word.”

    “The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge.” Psalm 19:1-2.

    “O Yahweh, our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth, Who have set Your glory above the heavens…. When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained, what is man the You are mindful of him?….You have crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands.” Psalm 8:1, 3 – 6.

    • da

      You sure? Or is that *your* preconceived programming speaking for you? If anything, I said *thank you* to Theresa, not to not pray for me.

      You’re assuming again. You really should stop that.

    • Theresa

      Ignorance is not bliss in this case sadly!! But i WILL PRAY FOR THEM!! Must be Obama followers!! New World Order right…da!! God speed dude. No weapon formed against me shall prosper says the Lord!! The reason our country is in the shape its in is because ATHEIST and all the others Darwin believers have tried to remove GOD….. but just watch… and see who rides up and saves the day DA…… Look out baby Heaven’s Army will surely rise to the occassion… So come all yoiu non believers… come aboard before YOUR ship has sailed…. Does anyone smell the sulfur,,, Thats what burns in Hell. HEY DA…. Read 23 Minutes in Hell by David Wiese….

  17. denise

    I wanted to return to the original topic of this blog – which (as you can guess) I find VERY interesting, as well as important – for ALL of us.

    Now, what I didn’t do before (and am opening myself up to now) is sharing my private feelings on a few things – which I generally avoid in an effort to remain objective and neutral.

    After 9/11, my initial reaction was that we should turn whichever country was responsible for the atrocity of terrorism into a glass factory. That was my first -gut-to-knee – reaction. And to be fair – I’m still very angry about 9/11. As most Americans are. I’m not a complacent person when it comes to certain matters – terrorism being one of those matters.

    As time has passed – 8.5 years now – my feelings of anger have NOT changed – but they have been redirected to the people responsible for that day, not the nation/s – as is appropriate, since “nations” are collectives, and do not make decisions. Yes, I recognize that governments make decisions and yaddayadda – but often those decisions don’t reflect the “true voice” of the entire national population – be that here, or in Afghanistan, or wherever.

    All of that being said, I am still opposed to torture. And I still maintain that we (meaning the U.S.) are not above the laws of the Geneva Convention that we helped to create. To bring this a bit closer to home, my thoughts went to the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City back in 1995.

    Some…most?…of us remember this with a LOT of sorrow. I have family in OKC, and I was on the phone for hours on end – I have a sister who, at the time, lived *just* up the road from the federal building, and I was horrified that something might have happened to her and/or her children. Many of us had similar reactions on 9/11 (myself included – wanting to ensure loved ones were okay)…the reactions were similar…and though the motives were different, the origins were also similar.

    Both were terrorist acts. Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and Michael Fortier – terrorist conspirators – planned and carried out the bombing of the OKC federal building on April 19, 1995 – the largest recorded domestic terrorist attack of which we know…killing 20 people, injuring more than a hundred, without any regard to the demographics of the almost 700 people (men, women, and children) in the building. Timothy McVeigh was quoted:

    “I didn’t define the rules of engagement in this conflict. The rules, if not written down, are defined by the aggressor. It was brutal, no holds barred. Women and kids were killed at Waco and Ruby Ridge. You put back in [the government’s] faces exactly what they’re giving out.”

    Hmmm…sound remotely familiar?

    Okay…getting to the point of this post, as it relates to terrorism and torture.

    McVeigh was executed by lethal injection. Nichols was sentenced to life in prison – and continues to appeal on various grounds. Fortier was sentenced to 12 years for conspiracy – and failure to notify government officials.

    These guys were terrorists

    …differing accounts were given for the acts committed. We can lay out whatever excuses that attempt to differentiate the “type” of terroristic attacks and by whom…

    …but my question is:

    Would anyone have supported the idea of torture with these three men had they been perceived as less than forthcoming with information about the bombing?

    If yes, why? … If no, why not?

    Please ensure that you understand my question before answering…because the relevance is difficult to miss, if you really think about it.

  18. BHO Must Fail, or we will!

    I heard Oliver North give an easy way to determine if an interrogation technique is torture or and EIT:

    Enhanced Interrogation Technique: “I wish this treatment would stop.” One is uncomfortable, doesn’t like the treatment, but knows they will survive. Water-boarding, sleep deprivation, face slapping, walling would fall into this category for sure.

    Torture: “I want to die to stop this treatment.” The pain and treatment is so severe, the subject hopes to die. The inflicter of this treatment knows how to push the limit of the treatment so the subject wants to die, but will not…or at least not yet. Nail pulling, electrocutions, flesh burning, limb breaking or removal…that would be torture for certain.

    • da

      That depends almost entirely on the nature of the follow-up question to the original. Meaning, I have colleagues who I consider (by far) more logical than I, given the nature of their specializations. If they were to ask me the same question you have, there is no fair or equitable way I could answer yes, because I’m not a philosopher (wherein origins of logic resides). However, in terms of everyday, practical matters, I (*usually*) am extremely logical. Usually, being the operative there. Working with those two premises, the answer could be either yes or no, depending upon YOUR intent with the original question. Any answer that can be (theoretically) wrong based on a “yes” or “no” answer falls into the circular category. Sorta like, “Did you beat your kids again?” though not quite as harsh.

      • da

        Something that has been declassified MEANS it no longer has a classification – even of “Sensitive”.

        The term Top Secret IS a classification. The memos were declassified.

        Why don’t we ask the question of why Dick Cheney requested (unofficially) specific memos to be opened up weeks before Obama “aired” already declassified information?

    • jeannieology

      Only 10 seconds? Too bad! I personally don’t care if they water boarded them for 30 minutes each for 80 times…what ever it takes to save American lives I’m all for it.

  19. Denise


    From a person who actually knows because he was physically there (unlike you, me, or Cheney) – directly refuting Cheney’s claims to “saving American lives”…

    …it’s caused American death. It’s caused further terrorist recruitment. Because they care as much for their people as we care for ours. Both sides believe they’re on the “right” side – and just as we are appalled at the deaths of our brethren, so are they.

    This man was part of the torture machine. This man was there in the Middle East actually listening to the response. This man -unlike Cheney’s *OPINIONS* about correctness or incorrectness of his decision- actually KNOWS the effects of torture.

    It’s basic, really.

  20. Denise


    Then the awareness (more of) that the methods *don’t* work, they’re *not* truly effective – from people with more than opinion – but actual experience in the field.

    I’m well…delivery imminent any day now – possibly within the next day, who knows? Hope all is well with you as well.

  21. Denise

    *chuckle* Thanks 🙂 I wish I could say that things are going as smoothly as my previous two (11 & 17 years ago, respectively) – alas, there are…”issues”…this time ’round. We should know more today hopefully. I love being a mom, but pregnancy is for the birds…lol! 😉

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